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Deviousness `anmari has been spreading her infectious positivity throughout our community for over 6 years. Throughout this time Ana has been at the core of all things devious, passionately developing an eclectic gallery, helping organise devmeets, participating in chat events and also recently completed dedicating her time as a Community Volunteer. We are absolutely delighted to bestow the Deviousness Award for May 2013 to `anmari, congratulations! Read More
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Sta.sh
I won't re-hash everything I said in my comment to
Very well, done. My compliments.
We know from learning about the pre-scratch trolls that in the post-scratch world, Kankri (for instance) turned out to be The Signless, thereby creating a path of safety for Karkat to grow up (as opposed to being culled on sight). On top of that, it's mentioned several times that Karkat was actually Kankri's ancestor on Beforus, at least in implication by mentioning other Alternian trolls as having been originally ancestors on Beforus, if not explicitly stated.
Logic (which is a dangerous thing to apply in a game like Sburb/Sgrub) clearly states that the pre-scratch humans would be the guardians of the post-scratch kids. E.g. Dave would become Dirk's Bro. To follow that line of thought back, Dirk would then have been Dave's Bro in the pre-scratch session. (Yes, this is fairly obvious, but it really hasn't been stated explicitly.)
So, if we apply this logic then to your statement here, Mom (i.e. Roxy) died with Dad (i.e. Jake), someone she, in her post-scratch self, mentioned she was attracted to, and actually had a shot with. Dirk flat out admitted he was gay, because he felt bad about not being able to really give Roxy a chance back when it was only him and her as humans on the planet. (This was just released in the last update before the hiatus where he's talking with Jane before ascending to Godtier.) Thus, Roxy died with Jake, and Bro died alone, much like their affections, as during Trickster Mode, Dirk broke up with Jake.
Granted, we have no idea how Jane fits into all this, as she's something of an anomaly since the pre-scratch session had 3 male guardians and 1 female, whereas the post-scratch session kids are 2 of each. So, unless we're getting into genderbending and trans* situations, I don't quite have a place for Jane. Hopefully, Hussie will provide us with a solution??Nvm, I just remembered that Jane is supposed to be Nana and John is supposed to be Poppop. Thus, Roxy didn't die with Jake, but with Jane's son, whom through use of shipping goggles we can assume was Jake's son, given the affection that was going on there at least on Jane's side.My apologies for rambling on like this, but I still think your comment fits quite well given the relationships we already know about the Alpha Kids. Poor Dirk is left rather torn apart and on his own. Talking about his pre-scratch iteration, he never even got the chance to meet Jake's pre-scratch iteration. So, to have him dying here with his heart broken and stabbed to pieces is both allusive to the fact that he was empty in romance, as well as a nice slide into his post-scratch title as the Prince of Heart.
The only thing I can actually think of when reading your comment, however, is the game sessions. 'Our' Dave is not Dirk's Bro- as Karkat explain to John about how his sessions Jack is not the Jack of Johns' session- they are variations.
In that manner one could think that while, for example, both the pre and post sessions have a Dave, they are not the same- Everyone in the post-scratch grew up in a much harsher environment, and as such their personalities and psychologies are different.
You are correct that each session's characters (players and NPCS [e.g. Jack]) are different, but, as I said, by following the logic of the way the session was rebooted with the trolls we can assume that the session with the kids was rebooted in the same way. Thus, although the ectobiological parents and children have reversed places (as with Karkat and Kankri) and the world is vastly different (Beforus vs. Alternia) the essence of each player/NPC is the same. In other words, Jack Noir is still Jack Noir in every session, even if his circumstances change. That's what I meant by Dirk being Bro.
No, pre-scratch Dave is not the guardian who raised Dirk, BUT the guardian who raised Dirk IS Dave, post-scratch Dave. As Kankri becomes the Signless post-scratch due to Beforus becoming Alternia. The reason the Signless (and Alternia) is so different though is because Doc Scratch messed with their universe using Damara's powers as the Witch of Time. So, I would agree that their psychologies are different, but I think I have to disagree that their personalities would change. Case in point, in spite of the way that Doc Scratch messed with Alternia, Rufioh is just as insecure as Tavros, he just functions better because he had a better support system with which to build his confidence, because Beforus' environment was better suited for the troll disease friendship.
((Off topic, can I say how nice it is to have an intelligent person with which to discuss such things? ^_^ Also, if you feel uncomfortable continuing this conversation here, feel free to PM me.))
That's true, although you should also think about the differences between the races- Trolls are racially different from humans in several ways. They are not fundementally 'made' the same ways as humans are- they have no parents, and their ancestor is the only person they are connected too. They are more or less much alike to their ancestors. We all know how diverse humans are. Another gigantic thing that is often overlooked -and that is the biggest pointer of this- are the classes. Everyone who plays Sburb/Sgrub has a class and aspect that goes with them. But the thing that is overlooked so much is how the humans share no classes- each person specifically has a different both class AND aspect, while the trolls share aspects with their dancestors- the aspect being what defines them the most. The human ancestors do share many traits, but not on the level of troll ones.
I understand what you mean about them being, in the essence, the same, but I can also use Jack for this- the two Jacks, while technically the same, chose different paths.
It's true, their personalities are very much alike, to the point of being almost completely alike. There are minor differences, but that can be put up to exposure and age.
((Oh god, yes! It's so nice ^^ I've only done something like this once before and that was just me with a friend arguing about word and punctuation placement in a speech. If you can think of any things to discuss I'd love to do so over PM! Even non-Homestuck, if you have anything outside of that that I'd know. Anime, world, really anything.))
I think the reason there are no duplicates among the humans regarding class and aspect comes more from there being fewer humans playing the game than trolls. (Which in and of itself poses an interesting side thought regarding shaping the game and the future with the say there was mention of 48 [I think] Squiddles that created the Trolls' universe originally.) The point of what you're saying, however, is exactly what I meant. Time, age, experience, and environment define the differences between Pre-Scratch Dave and Post-Scratch Dave, but at their core they're both Dave. The same can be said of all the characters, I think, with the exception being that in John and Jane's case, Nanna is Jane and Poppop is John. Though really that's actually said explicitly in the comic itself, even more so with Roxy and Rose, where both Lalondes looked at the other and immediately said "Mom?"
I suppose my point of view would have been more easily explained if I had gone that route, using the logic of inference based around the interactions between Alpha and Beta kids that we actually have seen in canon. But still, I'm glad you made the original comment you did. Please, do me the favor and add me on Skype (I'll PM you the name) because I'd LOVE to continue talking. However, I don't want to take over the comments section any more than we already have.